Fake News, Hybrid War, Five Star Architects: Rama Answers CNN

On 3 June, CNN’s Isa Soares devoted a segment to the protests in Tirana against a proposed luxury development on Albania’s southern coast, the Zvërnec island project in the Narta lagoon near Vlorë, linked to Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. She then put the matter to Prime Minister Edi Rama directly.

Over several minutes, Rama disputed the framing: the protests, he said, were confined to the capital rather than nationwide; the images circulating online were fabrications in what he called a hybrid war against the country; the prosecutor’s file concerned a landowner’s transaction, not the investment; and there was, in his words, no project yet. He named the international architects engaged on the design and argued that development and conservation could be reconciled. The host pressed on whether the project was proceeding and on the open investigation reported by Politico. The exchange was pointed throughout.

We publish the full transcript below, lightly edited for readability, so readers can weigh it for themselves.

Editorial note. This transcript was prepared from the broadcast. Verbal fillers and repeated false starts have been removed for readability; the substance of every exchange, including the interruptions and crosstalk, is preserved as it occurred. 

Speakers: ISA SOARES (host, CNN) and EDI RAMA (Prime Minister of Albania). Inserted broadcast clips are marked in brackets.

ISA SOARES: Now, protests across Albania over a proposed luxury resort with links to President Trump’s family. Still to come tonight, we’ll speak to the country’s prime minister about the controversial development.

Welcome back, everyone. A political storm is brewing in Albania, where protesters are sounding off against a luxury resort project with ties to the US president’s family. Demonstrators are in the capital, Tirana. They’re upset with the project linked to Ivanka Trump, President Trump’s daughter, and her husband, Jared Kushner. It’s planned for an island off the country’s southern coast, and critics worry about what the massive development will do to the environment. The area is home to protected wetlands, flamingos, seals, and sea turtle nesting areas. Ivanka Trump recently spoke about what led to her interest.

[Clip: Ivanka Trump] We were on a friend’s boat and we stopped for a swim. Effectively, that’s how we found it. We swam to the island. We went on a hike barefoot all the way up to the top, and we were just captivated.

ISA SOARES: That was Ivanka Trump describing, of course, how she came across this beautiful patch of land. Joining me now is the prime minister of Albania, Edi Rama. Prime Minister, a very warm welcome to the show. I’m hoping you can hear me. Can you hear me, sir?

EDI RAMA: I hear you, yes.

ISA SOARES: Fantastic. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us, sir. Let me get, first of all, your reaction to the protests we’ve been seeing, both in the capital, in Tirana, and in coastal towns, over this development that’s linked to Jared Kushner. How do you respond, sir, to the protests and indeed to their concerns?

EDI RAMA: First of all, thank you for giving me the opportunity, because I hate to say it, but it is quite an impression to feel the burden of the fake news coming even from outlets very highly respected in my eyes. And just to rectify: you said protests across Albania. This is fake. There are no protests across Albania. There is a protest in the capital city. We are in a hybrid war. Albania is under attack from enemies that we know very well. It’s under attack from competition that is very, very strong in our part of the Mediterranean. It’s under attack from thousands, from hundreds of thousands of bots that have been created to create all this storm. And of course, in this protest there are well-meaning people, young people genuinely interested in the environment, who have been misled big time. There is no such thing as a Trump family island. There is no such thing as the family of the American president taking over protected areas where flamingos will be killed by them. These are all stories that of course get traction but couldn’t be further from the truth.

ISA SOARES: Right, so let me break this down, because we’ve seen and we’ve been hearing from those protesting in the capital. In fact, let me play a clip, Prime Minister, from one person, an ecologist who has real concerns, whether you share them or not. Let me play it.

[Clip: ecologist at the site] We don’t talk anymore about how this project will affect the site, because here they planned big buildings, big residential houses. We’re talking about a new city. So in this stretch of kilometers of land, of wildlife habitat, we plan to build a new city. It’s declared 10,000 rooms, and what we hear now is even more. So we won’t have the protected area anymore. The Vjosa delta is completely being destroyed.

ISA SOARES: Right, so what we heard from him is not fake news. The protests, I asked my producer, Laura, to put them up, are also not fake news. The protests we’ve seen very clearly are not fake news. So, on the question of the project itself, Prime Minister, how are you and your government addressing these environmental concerns? You said yesterday, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you’re absolutely open to discussing it with anyone who has concerns. Have you been discussing these concerns with those people in the streets who are worried about this project?

EDI RAMA: Listen, thank you for putting that clip, because it’s exactly the portrait of someone who is misled, or who is part of the misleaders. First of all, there is no project. He is talking about a project that he has never seen anywhere except in fake pictures, created and thrown into the network of social media in Albania, because we are in a hybrid war. The matter…

ISA SOARES: So, let me just clarify, the project’s not going ahead, sir?

EDI RAMA: It’s not. Again, there is no project yet. So, do you want to listen to me, or do you want only to speak?

ISA SOARES: I’m going to listen to you. I want to listen to you, Prime Minister, but I want to clarify… Prime Minister, you are accusing me of… you are accusing me of fake news. I’m trying to clarify for our viewers. You’re accusing us, and I’m trying to clarify, with all respect, whether the project is still on or whether it’s been halted. Because, as you’ve seen, and this is according to Politico, Albania’s special anti-corruption prosecution office has opened an investigation into this project. So how is this project still ongoing?

EDI RAMA: Again, you don’t want to listen. It’s very clear to me, because I’m not attacking you. I’m telling you the truth, and until you show me the project, you have to just listen to me, because there is no project. And to make this project, the group, which is not just Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, it’s a broader group with very highly reputable investors, they have engaged five of the best, among the top architects of the world today: Kengo Kuma from Japan, Bjarke Ingels from Denmark, Emre Arolat from Turkey, K-Studio from Greece, and Jean Nouvel from France. And these people are working together with top engineers of the environment, top people of social impact. In the meantime, one of the biggest consultancy companies has been engaged for the environmental impact, because the challenge is not to build a city. The challenge is not to pour concrete on the heads of flamingos. The challenge is to prove that development and nature not only can coexist, but…

ISA SOARES: go ahead…

EDI RAMA: …nature and development need each other, because people deserve to live in a different type of environment, where they have to enjoy and they have to pay respect. So the project is not yet there. The environmental impact is being weighed. You understand? And let me finish.

ISA SOARES: Yeah, go ahead.

EDI RAMA: Let me finish. What is this? Let me finish.

ISA SOARES: There’s no need to be disrespectful. I’m asking you. Go ahead, Prime Minister, finish your thought.

EDI RAMA: Please let me finish, because you brought up Politico, and you said there is an anti corruption investigation.

ISA SOARES: Go ahead, go ahead. I’m letting you finish.

EDI RAMA: It’s fake news. It is an investigation about one of the landowners. It’s private land. One of the landowners who has sold the property is the object of investigation, which was bought through very transparent bank transactions, and the investigation is about that. It’s not about the investment. It’s not about the project. It’s not about Kushner. It’s not about Trump. It’s not about anything that’s being brought into this melting pot to create a sensational fake news that Albania is a place where we are killing flamingos. No. Albania is a place where today, now, as we speak, in this room, on the other side, listen to me, on the other side there are some hundred of the top architects in the world. Why? Because we are presenting today this book. This book, think of it like this, is full of projects of the new Albania that many others don’t want to see coming. We are not here to destroy the country. We are here to make Albania a role model.

ISA SOARES: Thank you for clarifying that, Prime Minister. I think that is important. Thank you for clarifying that. It’s important that we hear from you. As soon as the project gets the green light, of course, come back to us and let us know. It would be good to have you back on the show. Really appreciate it. And of course, we weren’t saying that you were killing flamingos or anything. This is not what we said, but of course we’ll continue to monitor.

EDI RAMA: You were implying it.

ISA SOARES: I did not imply that, but we’ll continue to look at those protests and hear from the Albanians and their concerns. Prime Minister Edi Rama, really appreciate you coming on the show and taking the time to speak to us, Prime Minister. Thank you, sir.

EDI RAMA: No, thank you.

ISA SOARES: Our thanks to the Prime Minister, of course, for speaking to us about this. We’ll stay on top of this.